Hi...
First and foremost: Welcome CD and Muskan. Thank you for showing your interest in this blog.
This opening post is going to be about voting in general...We will primarily look at the reasons for the poor voter turnout in India and in other countries as well (including the United States....yes. Dont be surprised its only 60% there). So, extend the discussion beyond the point of Indian Elections and Voting Systems if possible. We encourage, all those who want to contribute to an over all picture of voting, to do so without any hesitation.
(State your points/views/opinions through comments to this blog post)
-The Tripod
Posts
First and foremost,congratulations are in order to you guys for reaching so far.
ReplyDeleteI was jus wondering,n i discusd dis wid Niks also,dat xactly hw will u ensure dat multiple votes by one person r nt cast.
let's say,in the US,every citizen has a Social Security No....or for that matter every Indian has a Voter ID Card(hence a voter ID PIN)..so u verify d PIN wid a Govt database...check if already vote has been cast by dat person..n den continue...?
Is dis hw u plan to check 4 multiple votes or am i barking up d wrong tree here...?
n what if i happen to know ur PIN n personal details...n cast a vote for you as per my whim.
As d voting experienced is,let's say in a way 'virtual',is dere any surity ?
Also,knowing d current scenario,i dont believe it'll b difficult 4 d govt in power ryt nw to procure a list of PIN's for specific regions and create dummy profiles and cast votes to retain power.
Even if a number of ppl come up saying dat dey havnt cast dere votes,yet r nt able 2 vote...
dis wud void d election n more taxpayer's money shall go down d drain...
P.S. : was pretty hammmered wen i wrote dis...
high probability of it all bein
jibberish !!
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletehey duggal...thanx a ton man...
ReplyDeleteNow moving on to your concern about fake votes...Tell me have u ever carried out any of your banking transactions online??? Is it only your account number that is important or a minor lil thing called password/pin important as well??
Rellying on a single entity in order to prove ones identity is foolish for all the right reasons u pointed out...that is why a password will be provided to each voter along with his voter id...
Further it is up to the voter to protect his password...wolud u ever be so kind to make the password of your google account known to anyone(even to the closest of your friends)???
That is just your google account, and you are so protective about it...this is your VOTE that we talking about...
Now wat if the Govt/the election comm doesnt kno about these passwords??Is the identity and vote of a citizen protected now??
Further we are providing voters to change their passwords in case they want to...
Tell me if the scene sounds safe enuf...I am sure new things(worries) have crept into your mind...so voice them...i am anxious to hear them out...
PS: Nothin in this world is jibberish...there is a wealth of neural activity behind every and anything...so let those thots keep flowing...thats how we can improve the system...
the concept of mobile and on line voting is welcome being a new one. after all if financial transactions can take place on why can we not voe on line. it has the following advantages:-
ReplyDelete1. it will enable more number of people to vote since many people do not vote due to the complicated and time consuming process of voting. it will empower the voters.
2. mobile and on line voting will save costs of transportation for voters and many related costs for the election commission.
3. it will enable many voters to vote who hither to fore could not vote like those out of town on permanent or temporary basis as well as all Service voters. it is beneficial specially to service voters who are generally not able to vote through postal ballot also.
4. it will make the system of voting simpler and the election process will be eased.
5. voters can choose their candidates more freely without being coerced which happens very often.
there are some problems associated with such voting methods. these are as under:-
1. the voting system can be tampered with. proxy voting can take place.
2. it can not be the sole form of voting since many people do not access to mob/ internet. it can supplement the existing system.
3. presently the system is not geared for such voting.
issues which need to focussed upon to make mobile/ on line voting successful are as follows;-
1.people who want to vote on mobile should be registered / enabled to do so.
2. proper protocols and security should be evolved so that fake voting does not take place.
3. such transactions should be toll free.
when i have more views i will respond again.
bye
shankar
there are some other issues
ReplyDelete1. it should be simple to use.
2. usable over any mobile model / internet search engine.
3. it should be confirmative to let voters know that their vote has been cast.
4. vote once cast should not be duplicative. that record should be barred.
5. there should be a proper verification system before acceptance of the vote. it can be based on a PIN which needs to be given along with the voter identity card.
6. the voter should get to know whom he has to vote for. in essence there should be an interactive sms system with a particular constituency so that when you sms voter details, there is a positive identification followed by a return sms to enable the voter to know who are the candidates/ election symbols / options like in ballot paper.
7. it should be a toll free number so that the poor can vote with out any problem.
8. it should be tamper proof.
9. there should be limited edition trial prior to full deployment. this happened with electronic voting machines also when they were introduced.
10. there needs to be a proper public information campaign so that people know how to go about voting. remember votes have to the constituency which will be far away from the voter.
11. the voter should be able to reach his particular constituency.
if you need any more views we can interact.
bye
shankar.
7.
Nice idea . Keep going. Which stage did u reach of imagine cup?
ReplyDeleteAnyway who the hell is muskaan and CD
Well Ravi enumerated lot of points worth a thought...I would like to add some more..
ReplyDelete# Since if voting goes online or mobile it will be a 1 min job, we do not need to have a holiday for the polls. A day's production counts,isn't it.
# Increased voting implies a greater contribution of citizens in govt formation...a govt 'by the people' as we call it.
# Since the process is all computerized, we can have the results the same day, saving time.
# Not to forget the large amounts of 'PUBLIC MONEY' spent on holding the polls. The expenditure on arranging poll booths, employing ppl for vote counting etc. will all be saved.
# Once the polling goes online, the political parties will be encouraged to carry on their publicity stuff online too. So we can avoid large public gatherings and rallies.
# Mobile is a very common mode of communication these days and so it should not be considered that this system can not serve as the 'sole' system for voting. You can find mobile phones even with beggars these days. Infact India has one of the largest pool of mobile users.
# Not only the lazy will come up to vote. Also people with disabilities who cannot stand in long poll booth queues, the old and sick, even pregnant women can all vote with convenience.
# We won't see any more poll booth captures.
Also if its all online I won't have to spoil my manicured nails with the dirty thick ink mark.
Jokes apart, the greatest advantage is to have a transparent system with greater participation of people in creating their own future, because that's what a democracy is all about and also that a better election is highly correlated with a better future.
The first thought that came to my mind after seeing this is-
ReplyDeleteHmm, nice idea. It would be really cool if voting could be made that easy.
No doubt (as pointed in the earlier posts) there will be crucial challenges of authentication, security, integrity, etc. but they can all be dealt with if tried hard enough. I am not sure about the legal hassles though, they are always a pain in the neck.
I feel that your idea has good potential. If you work hard, you will definitely get great results.
I don't have any comments on voting in general, other than the obvious one that a lot more people will vote if it is as convenient as you propose to make it, which is good.
I do however have some comments on participating in Imagine cup from my experience-
1. For the development of your project, use latest technologies- like the latest version of .net, databases, etc. This makes an important impact on judges, although does not sound that meaningful.
2. The judges are generally VCs, and so they look for profit making in the idea. You should have sense of how your idea could make profit for someone who invests in it.
3. Good presentation skills. This should have been point 1. Practice your speech/demos well and be prepared for questions.
Lastly, it was a nice idea to start this blog. Document this also in your imagine cup submission ;)
All the best!
Sunjeet Tatla.
Thank You...Thank You all...firstly...Dad welcome to the blog...Rajat ur points are refreshing as usual, i was wondering when u were going to "THINK",welcome to the blog man...welcome to the blog Ace...been missing u here...And Tatla Sir, thank you so much for your advice.
ReplyDeleteI will answer you first ace...we have reached the 2nd round for Design for Development Award and we are awaiting the results of the Software Development Category Round 1. I will shoot u a mail with the details...
Now i think Rajat has made a few good points...these are all valid points when it comes to anyone of our age group (18-25 yrs.). And all of them are valid...including the one about the manicured nails...
But the issues i will be addressing in this comment are those raised by Ravi (my dad)...
As far as proxy voting goes...i have already given an answer, the one i gave to duggal...but to add to tht...once a voter has voted he will be tagged...this will tell us who all have voted and will bar those voters from votin time and again. Further a max of 2 shots is given to the voter to log in to the system...after that he looses his chance to vote any further...
Moving on....looking at the point of pre deployment testing....yes that is A MUST!!!! without that we wont be able to gauge how sound the system is...A public information campaign will also be a prerequisite for this system to become entirely operational...but that is still a long way off...
Anyone one with an ordinary mobile phone (think of the 1100) can vote...our target happens to be the masses and we understand that the masses donot have smart phones.
Quite a few ppl are pointing out tht the no to which the vote is to be cast should be a toll free no. well i think it is achievable. I am sure that if this system does see the dawn of reality then getting such things into place wont be a problem.
Voting via SMS will be very interactive. The voter will keep getting frequent SMSs regarding Voter Instructions, Political Party and Candidate Details, Vote Confirmation Msgs...etc.
Hope these points give you a fair idea of the system that we are designing...let the ideas keep coming...
Cheers
But ppl...tell me this...why dont we vote??? and who is "we"??
ReplyDeleteWell, I'm totally agree with d author as well as wid those people who dropped there precious ideas in d form of comments...
ReplyDeleteIndia people are categorized into three parts (basically).... Rich people, Middle class people & Poor people....
On Election's day Rich people who r mainly businessman dont have time to vote becoz they dont want to go to any polling booth to spend their precious time.... or they give more priority to their business .....
Or they dont want to vote becoz of our great politicians ....
Second group is of Middle class people who are mainly service class.....
So, they celebrate Election's day as National Holiday.....
They prefer to complete their pending works ... rather than to Vote....
Now here comes the Majority of Voters ...... Who Votes with a motive....
It can b Earning money on behalf of Vote or just vote becoz they trust politician's promise .....
The majority of political party's workers belong to this particular group....
They blindly follow politicians becoz of illiteracy or may b of Poverty.... Becoz Politician spends or use their Black money during these elections....
These r some reasons that do not allow MOV to work properly ....
But as the concept is damn good & Indian youth is capable to implement it ...
MOV will surely use in future ....
But it will take time.... may b in next Elections we are able to use MOV....
Well this is a point to ponder Rachit..
ReplyDeleteMOV can sure revolutionize the voting system but it cannot solve the problem of biased voting and purchased votes. This is smthing which deals with the ideology and mentality of ppl so cannot be directly influenced by voting going online. But you see, if i can stand for an election and do all the publicity stuff and contest the election, all online with ppl able to directly communicate to me again online; it would become easier for a good man to stand in the election and do some good work. There are guys who would gladly go into politics, but the initial task to form a good party and convince ppl to vote and sustain the opposition by other groups is a Herculean task in itself. It is tough for an individual to contest elections and win unless he joins some big political party. SO elections going online will open new avenues for these ppl who wish to take the shit out of the system.
Vijay remember it was YOU who got me into THINK..right!!
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ReplyDeletewell i totally agree with the point putted on by Rachit, that explains the present scenario very clearly.
ReplyDeletebut can we leave it like this......no........somehow we have to start changing the system..
i know most of us think the same way....but we all back off. beacuse of prevelant system as explained by Rajat.
But m sure MOV can be the hope for the ppl like us who want to change system....who want to erradicate the shortcomings........who really think abt the ppl n nation...
ahm ahm....well we are almost projecting it as a tool to bring about the Indian renaissance..but there is one more point worth striking you gray cells. What about the people who are not at all familiar with the computers and internet thing. Forget the online voting, there are a lot of people who do not get the electronic or even the on paper voting right. It is a fact that a large number of cast votes go in dump because of errors done by the 'intelligent' voters. But be sure, these people cannot be denied their voting right as they are as much the citizens of India as you. So these fellas, who i think might be in huge numbers must find the system easy(not the ordinary easy) and must not stay away from voting becoz it is some 'computer stuff'. I think you ppl get what i mean.
ReplyDeleteaaa well...u have finally come upon it...yes i have been pondering over this myself and i have come up with 2 theories:
ReplyDelete1. The situ in the rural areas is not as bad as u think. ppl do use mobile phones without any gr8 difficulties. for those who do have probs we can use the electronic voting machines. The idea is to replace the electronic machines with MOV and the paper ballots with the electronic voting machines.
2. The 2nd one is a lil awkward. What u have to realize is this voting system is instrumental in getting the youth to vote, in getting the ppl in urban areas who just dont find time out of their busy or "busy" lifestyles to vote. The villagers are anyway enthusiastic about voting...its time to get the urban ppl involved in the process. If we can do that...i think we will be able to get a 100% turnout (that is 40% more, 55-60 is the current turn out). Further we will be able to get the more of the urban folk to register as the process will surely become simpler for them.
I understand if u find it a lil difficult to digest this 2nd theory of mine but heres the thing: We have been creating new ways and diverting our energies into getting the villagers to vote. In the process we have forgotten the urban areas. This is has become a major problem in itself. Its like the "easy math question" u know inside out but mess it up in the paper because u dint practice it and at the same point of time u are not able to crack the difficult problems at hand.
"Aasan sawal hum karte nahi hain, Mushkil hum se hote nahi hai"
So ultimately u end up in a very bad shape. See wat i mean.
I agree that the real need of the hour is to get the urban population out of their shell and understand their responsibility to vote. And yes, the online voting is out of question for rural areas where internet connectivity is not there.
ReplyDelete"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
~ Bertrand Russell
Mind it, i do not call the rural the fools, only the ignorant. Also cuz we need not an intelligent vote, but a majority of intelligent votes. So its time educated ppl make some use of their education.
And yeah, you are wrong to assume that the ignorant race dwells in the rural areas..
A couple of days ago an engineering student asked me what a blog actually was!!!!!![:P]
yup ignorance can dwell anywhere...
ReplyDeletei hope this makes the urbans more involved..
Also an important thing to consider are the voter registrations...
Getting a voter registration is again an important aspect since there is a huge possiblity of fake ids. So there has to be some efficient system to ensure that.
Also don't you think the voter registrations should not take place right on time of elections but well before time, so that voters get their ids on time. The election commission must be active throughout the year, so that it has a lot of time to make things organised and convienient.
1.Your whole new idea of implementing MOV is great n will definitely prove to be very comfortable for middle n higher class citizens to cast their votes.But what about those people who are below the poverty line or dont know how to operate a computer or a mobile(though mobile are nowdays within the reach of even the poor but still i know many people in my village who dont owe a mobile phone set yet..).What about these people who havnt ever used a mobile set?
ReplyDeleteWill this system really be effective for those people ?
2.Secondly, what is your plan to cast votes,like your mobile would require internet connectivity or GPS activated on it to use it as a browser to cast your vote,otherwise, how would you compensate for security slackness.
Those who might have bought a cellphone just for the purpose of communication might not be able to use this new voting system.
3.Thirdly, its like mostly people are adamant to use the so called old voting system only.It would take time for when people would actually start using this system.
4.Anyway,if however MOV becomes popular among people,what if anyone would like to change their casted vote due to change of mind or if anyone just presses the wrong button accidently for one reason or the other.Is there any way in which one can change their vote for the second time.Like you can give 3 chances to a single person,s ID n ask him if he would like to change his vote if he logs in for the second time,otherwise,just ask him to log out.
1. Do u realize that it is the middle n higher class ppl who dont cast their votes so regularly while the ppl in villages are more active about voting.
ReplyDelete2. the system tht we are designing takes ur 2nd concern into account. When we say mobile voting we are looking at voting via a Nokia 1100 and not an iPhone.
3. as far as security is concerned, it wont be slack if worked out properly. u c we believe that if people can trust hard earned money with computers and the internet then their votes shud not be an exception.
4. i dont think that ppl will take time getting used to the system. they will be able to vote from anywhere...they will grab such a luxury with both hands. As far as the system provokes the thot of voting in the mind of the youth its a lot to think about.
5.well allowing recast of vote is a lil bit of compromise in security under any situation. there can be only 2 reasons for a voter to change his vote:
a) he has been bullied by someone into doing so.
b) or he is so careless about the whole affair that he cant make up his mind or for that matter cant press the right button.
u cant really allow this from happening. but tell me if am wrong. i will be more than happy to correct myself.
1. i have not yet gone for voting in the
ReplyDeletepresent system but i don't think there also
we have any facility of recasting vote.
2. we can have an undulated considered
specific opinion about the government which
we would like to have before casting our vote.
Also it's upon us how sincerely we take
this task of voting.i mean we can't take it
casually.
however ,in the system appropriate time is
given to view the complete details of the
candidate which would reduce the
user-end complications .
i guess this concept is still a little utopian till the time the issue of data security isn't dealt with effectively. A few days ago a cyber spy ring was uncovered by a group of canadian researchers. The ring had it's roots in china and it was operating with the full support of the intelligence establishment. Their snooping activities were so successful that they managed to steal critical data from government and private computers located in 103 countries, including India and the USA. And incursions by hackers into Indian computer networks is not a thing of the past, it still goes on unabated. In the past external forces had left no stone unturned in manipulating the political climate in our country, whether it was nixon's support to the ultras in punjab in the 70s or china's support to the maoists in the poor states. Transferring the most critical process of our democratic setup into a vulnerable domain like the internet will only make their job easier.
ReplyDeleteyes dexter i totally agree with your point of data security.......n i also know the present scenario of hacking....where countries like china are threat to almost every nation..
ReplyDeletebut again if we look over the sytems used for wired transactions and ATM's , they r most secure.
we can use them....i know it would be pretty costly, but i think all of us really understand the need of such system, and atleast our money which we pay in form of taxes and various service charges will be used for the betterment of nation.
and this thing is not like impossible. i would like to add up the name of nation like Estonia, where they have been successfull in impleting this thing a little bit.
but at last i would like to add-up that risk is everywhere, but theres nothing which we can't make it securely.
we live in age of net-banking, where we rely on our hard earned money, then why not for our vote. which have the power to change the whole picture..
i think that every hurdle shud only be an excuse to overcome it in the best possible manner and not an excuse to shy away from it...
ReplyDeleteit would still be tougher for a guy to hack the voting system than to hire 4 gunmen and capture the poll booth. And yeah, even if my system is hacked i can have my software professionals to take care of it and can arrange re-polling the very next day!! And people won't mind cuz they just have to send another sms. Also i don't think the security will be as costly as the ATM system as most of the high cost involved with ATMs are the installation costs, but we're not installing any machine as such. About changing one's vote, i think it is ruled out since one should be certain about who he wants to vote. And a person incapable of reaching a logical decision should not vote at all, that will be a help.
ReplyDeleteAnd yeah, this blog is not about "A 100 reasons to not to create MOV" but about bringing out all the dimensions of the real time application so that we can cater to all needs and problems in one go. We don't wanna blunder up first and then come up with a 2.0 version.
Heres another thing about the security of such a system:
ReplyDeleteIf you make the sever hack proof then i believe that you have got the trick. Coz then the hacker will have to hack into the voters computer or cell and change the votes.
Now heres the thing and this is the only thing:
CAN HE HACK ENOUGH COMPUTERS/CELL PHONES IN A FEW HOURS(the few hrs for which the elections are conducted) TO BRING ABOUT A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE IN THE RESULTS???
I know that even the smallest of change can make a lot of difference but one has to realize the magnitude of hacking and voter impersonation that will have to be carried out to actually effect elections. To achieve such magnitudes is impractical...wont you agree???
The reasons for the poor voter turnout in India and in other countries as well are as follows :
ReplyDelete-> Laziness : People feel lazy to
a> travel a lot
b> think about whom to vote
c> long lines
-> Fear : There is still fear that people supporting certain parties may bash you up.
-> Covering Distances : Again a part of the first point... also in certain cases it is difficult to reach the destination.
-> Busy Life : People do not get time to spend on going to vote... also du to hectic schedules, it is very tiring to go there and then stand in lines.
-> No Voting card : Many people have not got themselves registered due to its complicated procedure.
The reasons for poor voter turnout in india are numerous and cannot be summarized in a few sentances
ReplyDelete->Laid back attitude-The influential middle class in our country is to busy winning bread for thier families and frankly take voting day as a holiday
->Most of the people in our country think that the elections are rigged and therefore one or two votes here or there will not make any differance
->Nobody likes to take the pain of travelling and standing in a long queue to vote
->Many people are also unaware of the current political scenario's and therefore they thimk that without the apat information thier vote is as good as nothing
I love this concept!! I really do!!
ReplyDeleteInternet voting, mobile voting....and all the new technology...it's supposed to easen the show for the youth, especially those, who are too lazy to give an hour of thought in choosing their very government...and for the rural man, your mobile SMS system is quite a relief !!
But I do have a few concerns!
And before I discuss your voting system, lets discuss voting in general. In my view, a voting system has four required characteristics:
--->1. Accuracy.
The goal of any voting system is to establish the intent of each individual voter, and translate those intents into a final tally. To the extent that a voting system fails to do this, it is undesirable. This characteristic also includes security: It should be impossible to change someone else's vote, stuff ballots, destroy votes, or otherwise affect the accuracy of the final tally.
--->2. Anonymity
Secret ballots are fundamental to democracy, and voting systems must be designed to facilitate voter anonymity.
--->3. Scalability
Voting systems need to be able to handle very large elections. Nearly 390 million people voted out of a possible 670 million eligible to vote, according to data from the Election Commission of India.
--->4. Speed
Voting systems should produce results quickly. This is particularly important in our country, where a common man's bread is driven by the government in control!
The first point--accuracy
An issue of computer systems is that software can be 'hacked'. That is, someone can deliberately introduce an error that modifies the result in favour of his preferred candidate.
This has nothing to do with whether the voting machines are hooked up to the internet on election day. The threat is that the computer code could be modified while it is being developed and tested, either by one of the programmers or a hacker who gains access to the voting-machine company's network.
I'm not questioning your credibility, but we are humans afterall! It's much easier to surreptitiously modify a software system than a hardware system, and it's much easier to make these modifications undetectable.
Malicious changes or errors in the software can have far-reaching effects. A problem with a manual machine just affects that machine. A software problem, whether accidental or intentional, can affect many thousands of machines and skew the results of an entire election.
Some have argued in favour of the system, citing the millions of rupees that are handled every day by ATMs and other computerised financial systems. That's pretty true, but that argument ignores another vital characteristic of voting systems: ANONYMITY !!
India has a system of secret ballot. No one except me knows my vote. But once this system comes into practice, anyone having access to the government database can crack my head right on !!
And as far as ATM's, internet banking systems and Computerised financial systems are concerned, they get most of their security from audit. If a problem is suspected, auditors can go back through the records of the system and figure out what happened. And if the problem turns out to be real, the transaction can be unwound and fixed.
Online financial transactions today are usually followed later by account statements delivered on paper from the credit card company or merchant. The consumer should, and usually does, check those statements, at least superficially, and can contact the merchant or credit company if there is an error.
Because elections are anonymous, that kind of security just isn't possible!
Remember the aftermath of the American presidential election on 2 November 2004, electronic voting machines were in the news. Computerised machines lost votes, subtracted votes, and doubled some votes too. And because many of these machines have no paper audit trails, a large number of votes were never counted.
"The flaws are unsolvable because they are fundamental to the architecture of the Internet," says Wagner, assistant professor of computer science at
UC Berkeley.
Using a voting system based upon the Internet poses a serious and unacceptable risk for election fraud. It is simply not secure enough for something as serious as the election of a government official.
Moral of the story is "You have to compromise one-either security or anonymity!" and being the residents of a country where elections are a tradition, we just can't have any unscrupulous system like this !
anyways, Kudos for the concept!!